Friday, April 26, 2024

New recruits for the AWI

 I've just painted and based two more regiments for the AWI.

38th Foot


The 38th Foot uses up the remainder of a set of Revell (Accurate, Imex) redcoats that I had already started for my other Crown forces.  The regimental colour is modelled with too small a flag, so I've done the union flag in the corner to the correct size and most of the yellow area must have been shot away in action.  

The king's colour is painted freehand on a piece of 80gsm printer paper.  The ensign is converted from an awkward pose of a man stabbing downward with a bayonet, holding his musket overhead.  I cut off his hands at the wrist and gave hime new hands by sticking some tissue paper around a straightened paperclip (the flagpole).


The light company was already painted for use in the amalgamated light battalion.  They are a slight conversion from A Call to Arms British infantry 1775.  The original models look like the Light Dragoons fighting on foot, with a central ridge on their helmets and a horsehair crest.  I trimmed that off and stuck a bit of it to the side of the helmet to make the plume on a light infantry cap.  The plume is black (pre-Paoli) but would be dyed red later in the war.

As always, the photographs show a host of problems with the painting.  Some are due to my eyesight & standard of brushwork (e.g. the wonky white ribbon around the edge of the hats), while others are just steps that I missed (e.g. the unpainted crossbelts on the back of the ensign carrying the King's colour).  I don't work from a checklist, so the decision that a miniature is "finished" depends on whether I can remember or see anything more that needs to be done.  They certainly won't win any prizes, but will be fine on the table.

1st Maryland

The 1st Maryland are also Revell redcoats, given that the uniforms were so similar (and many of them stolen from supplies intended for the Crown forces).  The two giants of men in the command group are taken from the Italeri set for Washington's army.  I'm trying to use them for variety where their size may not be noticed.  A separate unit of all Italeri figures would stand out even worse on the table.

The photograph shows a shockingly slapdash job of painting them, which is mostly down to my eyesight at the time.  If I could have seen the models this well, I would have fixed some of the horrors in the paintwork.

The 1st Maryland fought at Long Island in stolen British uniforms dyed brown with red facings.  In 1777 they switched to blue coats faced red, which they wore for the Philadelphia campaign.  The later standardisation of the uniforms for the continental army needed no change for them.  They also took part in the Southern campaign, including Guilford Courthouse, Hobkirk Hill and Eutaw Springs.  The faults in my paintwork will spend a lot of time on the table to taunt me.

The Baltimore flag in this unit may not be correct, the backpacks are the wrong shape (although correctly painted in a red/crimson colour) and the reversed colours for the drummer are complete guesswork.  Photographs of re-enactors show the drummer in the same coat and facing as the rest of the regiment.

Next up will be some cavalry for the rebels, probably the 2nd continental light dragoons.

Until next time, health & happiness to you all.

Monday, April 22, 2024

Five Leagues Amazons chapters 1 to 12

 For a while I've been playing through a campaign of Nordic Weasel's 5 Leagues from the Borderland (v2).

Like most of the "Five" series of games, this provides a simple tabletop skirmish against programmed opponents and a set of campaign rules to cover the activity between fights.  I have experimented with other skirmish campaign systems, often mixing campaign rules from one source with skirmish rules from another source.  For example, Joe Lengan's Platoon Forward provides campaign rules to use with a platoon-level skirmish game.  For the amazons I'm using 5 Leagues for both, as designed.

So far I've stayed with version 2 of the rules, which look like something typed up in a word processor.  The latest version (v3) published by Modiphius has suffered the attentions of graphic designers, so the text seems smaller and harder to read, with two columns on a page and coloured backgrounds for tables.  I may move forward eventually, but for now I'm sticking with the printer- & eyeball-friendly presentation of v2. 

Alkippe's band of amazons is attempting to stabilise three villages in Lower Caria against the threats of outlaws, border incursions and the dark secrets of sorcery.  The Amazons begin in Idomenea, and will later move on to Heste & Galatessa.

The initial party consisted of:

  • Alkippe, the leader, armed with a hand-and-a-half sword.  Her endurance allows her to recover quickly from wounds
  • Bremusa, a loyal defender of Alkippe, armed with a short bow
  • Calaeno, Alkippe's loyal ally, lighter-armoured but with another great sword
  • Derinoe, a fully-armoured hero with a spear

These heroes (heroines?) are accompanied by two followers:

  • Eriboea, a former soldier in light armour with a short sword
  • Phoebe, a deranged wretch with a short bow

Over the course of 10 campaign turns, the amazons have cleared Idomenea of all threats and developed into a tougher band of warriors.  The followers have become heroes and the group has been joined by further followers and hangers-on.

In keeping with the spirit of the game, I use what models I have available.  My amazons don't all look as Greek as you might expect, the border incursions are Egyptians, and when the campaign called for undead enemies then they were mummies.

Chapter 11 - approaching the roadblock


Chapter 1 - Arrival in Idomenea

Bremusa buys drinks for the locals and recruits a follower, Jack.  The amazons buy him a sword.  They also recruit a villager, Kouros.

No fight this time, but the amazons meet a peasant who offers to do them a favour when they need it.


Chapter 2 - Egyptian raiders

On the road the amazons meet an entertainer who ignores them and brushes past.

The amazons patrol a local farm and bump into a group of 4 Egyptian soldiers.  The amazons win the fight, but Alkippe is hit with an arrow and lightly wounded.


Chapter 3 - Jack the earner

Jack goes out to work and makes some cash for the group to pay for lodgings while Alkippe loses a turn recovering from her injury.


Chapter 4 - Mummy, Mummy!

The amazons bump into a group of three undead at close range and the fight is quickly joined.  All the mummies are killed, but Alkippe and Jack are both wounded and are lucky not to be seriously hurt.

In this encounter the amazons learn to work in pairs, to gain an advantage over tough opposition like the undead.


Chapter 5 - Chilling

Alkippe recovers, the party stays in town & sells some spare gear they picked up


Chapter 6 - Nutters

The group buys full armour for Calaeno (although I continue to use the same unarmoured model for her).

On patrol they find a group of fanatics in a cave complex, including a bridge over an underground river.  There are seven of them, and two leaders.

Eriboea nearly died of her wounds (I used a story point to save her).  She will be out of action for 5 campaign turns.  Also her short sword is damaged and must be repaired or replaced before it can be used.

Calaeno killed both the leaders and receives bonus development.

Jack is promoted to a hero for his part in the fight.

Significant loot from the fanatics includes a scroll allowing one of the group to learn a spell to use in future, and a quiver that is never empty.

The amazons also find evidence of what has been going on with the fanatics, leading to a wider investigation and removing the threat completely.


Chapter 7 - Her again!

On the road the amazons meet an entertainer who ignores them and brushes past.  Again.

They don't find anyone to fight


Chapter 8 - Smugglers' Hole

On the road the amazons meet a scholar who treats them with disdain.  He turns out to be an agent of a neighbouring kingdom, working as part of some conspiracy.  The border threat increases.

Later they encounter a group of 4 smugglers with a lieutenant leading them.  They are found at a storage shed by the edge of the woods through which the smugglers travel unseen with their contraband.

The amazons use their superior numbers (even without Eriboea) to quickly defeat three of the smugglers, at which point the other two flee.

In the shed they find ledgers and records of the smugglers' business, which allows the rest of the gang to be caught and another threat removed.


Chapter 9 - The keep on the borderland

The locals have heard about the scholar making trouble and want the amazons to deal with him.  They offer free upkeep for a turn.

Derinoe still hasn't managed to track an enemy, despite having studied tracking

The amazons explore a farm near a ruined tower on a hill, and discover a military patrol of 4 Egyptians.

They defeat three of the Egyptians and the fourth runs away.  They didn't find the scholar, but were paid a bounty for the patrol.

Later, the fourth Egyptian comes into Idomenea and asks to join the amazons, rather than go home.  His name is Likuris.

Idomenea is now clear of all threats, so the amazons decide to move on.


Chapter 10 - Moving on - start of Season 2

The amazons leave Idomenea and travel to Heste.  On the way, they meet Makarios, the friendly peasant who still owes them a favour from chapter 1.  They arrange to meet in Heste.

Along the road, they encounter 8 outcasts with a captain to lead them.  They are camped around an abandoned temple building at the roadside and the amazons stumble right into them.

In an untidy melee, Calaeno take out a couple of the outcasts, Phoebe takes one by archery and right from round one individual outcasts start running away.  However, at the climax of the fight, Alkippe duels with the captain, with support from Likuris, and loses.  Fortunately she is only lightly hurt and will not take long to recover.  Likuris is briefly left to fight the captain on his own, until the captain breaks off and runs away.

They also find a prisoner in the old temple: a craftsman, who is polite, but not really interested.


Chapter 11 - Welcome to Heste (new meetings and a sad farewell)

The locals take pity on Alkippe's wound and provide free lodging for a turn.

Derinoe Tracks some enemies, and finally succeeds.  She is still the worst tracker in history!

Kouros does a few days of honest work and brings in some cash.

Alkippe is seen by the town healer, and returns to full health.

The amazons go out on patrol and encounter another 9 outcasts, led by a lieutenant.


The outcasts have set up an ambush in the deep forest, with fallen trees to act as road blocks and slow down any travellers.

The amazons spread out and advance in pairs to the flanks, with the archers and Kouros taking the centre.  Movement through the dense woodland is slow, and melee is only joined at the end of round 3.

Likuris has moved ahead, ready to be joined by Alkippe, but is caught on his own by an outcast and goes down.


Phoebe takes down two outcasts with the bow.  Derinoe defeats one in close combat. One outcast makes the mistake of closing with Calaeno and meets his end.

Alkippe takes revenge on Likuris's attacker. The lieutenant crosses the fallen tree to come grips with the amazons.  Two outcasts flee the field.


In the 5th round Bremusa finishes the lieutenant with an arrow.  Calaeno defeats another outcast, and yet another makes the mistake of closing with her, the last mistake he'll ever make.

The amazons held the field, the outcasts all down or fled.  However, Likuris did not survive his wounds.  He is the first that the group has lost. The outcasts had no loot, but the amazons reduced the threat level in Heste thanks to Derinoe's tracking.  Alkippe, Derinoe and Eriboea go up a level and gain in stats or skills.

The end of Likuris, Alkippe will avenge him


Chapter 12 - the blackest knight

After the drama of losing Likuris, the next chapter descended into farce, given my shameless abuse of the programmed actions of the enemy.

A wandering healer visits Heste, on a rare occasion when none of the group is injured.

Derinoe succeeds in tracking enemies again.  She may be getting the hang of this tracking.

The party explores the local area and finds a monster lair, but with no indication what kind of creature it is.  They decide to rush into the lair anyway.  In the middle of a maze of walls they find a Death Knight.

This is a daunting opponent, with 3 "lives" to lose, immune to wounding and so terrifying that the amazons need to roll high to even close with it.  


I arranged the main fighters (Alkippe, Calaeno, Derinoe) with backup (Jack, Kouros) covering the archers (Bremusa, Phoebe), while Eriboea acted as rodeo clown.  She is the fastest of the group, quick enough to outrun the death knight.  She runs up, to be the closest enemy, then moves away to distract the monster as it pursues.

While the death knight chased Eriboea, the archers shot at it.  Most of the time it was out of sight, but Eriboea ran around in a circle, returning to areas where the archers could get a bead on her pursuer.  In theory this could have gone on indefinitely, until one of the archers got lucky and hit a vital spot.  In fact it only took twelve rounds, which was extremely lucky as my calculation of the odds suggests it should have taken 81 rounds.  Phoebe ran out of arrows, but Bremusa had the ever-full quiver and passed it across to Phoebe as the more skilled archer.


To create a maze of walls around the monster, I rolled 1d12 for clock-face direction, 2d6 for distance in inches and an odd-even die for orientation (N-S or E-W) to place each wall segment.  There were enough openings for Eriboea to find a circuit to run around.

There's plenty of loot in the death knight's lair.  16 gold coins, 2 bottles of fine ale, and an enchanted weapon, which is ideal for Bremusa, so that she now uses her bow at +3 (although her natural combat ability is only +0).  It's the perfect companion for the never-empty quiver of arrows.


The rules provide an engaging series of games, which can be solo, cooperative or competitive.  The level of difficulty can be adjusted up or down.  I'm using the default level.   Recommended for a quick skirmish on a small table.

Tuesday, April 2, 2024

AWI in a box (actually, two boxes)

Following last year's spate of "army in a box" posts, here's a quick look at my two forces for the American War of Independence (AWI).

click to enlarge


The units are intended initially for Neil Thomas's One Hour Wargames (OHW) with the chance to expand them for other rules.  The basing is 4 men on a 4cm square MDF base, so that 3 bases would make a unit of 4"-6" frontage in OHW.  Other rules will work better with 4 bases to a unit, e.g. British Grenadier or a variant of any of Neil Thomas's other books (maybe starting with Wargaming: an Introduction).

My first scenario was Bunker Hill, a battle which actually took place at Breed's Hill, but this post is not going to be about all the myths and inaccurate history of the conflict.  The choice of units was focused on that battle, rather than a more generic set.

The crown forces comprise the 63rd, 43rd, & 5th foot, 4 bases of each plus a base of 2 light infantry skirmishers for their light companies.  The centre companies are Revell / Accurate / Imex redcoats, and the light companies are A Call To Arms 1775 light infantry.  The 5th are Airfix grenadiers, although their fusilier caps soon wore out and were replaced by regular hats as the conflict went on.  There's also a light company for the 38th foot; the centre companies of the 38th are still on my painting table.

A combined grenadier battalion with assorted facings was painted by someone else (OBE=Other Bloke's Efforts), as were the Hesse-Kassel Leib grenadiers.  The Hessians weren't at Bunker Hill, but I'll want them for later actions.  The 17th Light Dragoons and the 6- to 8-pounder gun were my own work.

In terms of an OHW scenario for Bunker Hill, the numbered reqiments and the grenadiers provide 4 units of infantry, the combined light companies 1 unit of skirmishers, and there is 1 unit of artillery on Moulton's Hill.

The rebels consist of 2 units of formed militia in their everyday clothes (mostly Revell / Accurate / Imex), 2 units of skirmishers in open order (mixed Revell & Airfix) and 2 regiments who have been (mostly) issued with uniforms: Colonel Sargent's Massachusetts (in green) and Stark's 1st New Hampshire (in brown with red facings).  These two units include a handful of Italeri figures, which are taller by a head than Revell (and the old Airfix models are smaller still).  I've tried to position them so that the height difference is less obvious.

In terms of an OHW scenario for Bunker Hill, Stark's men were there (although they didn't receive their uniforms until November 1775), along with a number of troops with no uniform.  There's also a 3-pounder gun with the Bunker Hill flag for the redoubt on Breed's Hill.  I think that's a Revell SYW Austrian gun on an Airfix Napoleonic French carriage.

The paintwork on these models is nothing to shout about. I have taken up miniature wargaming (and therefore the painting of toy soldiers) just as my eyes have started to need reading glasses.  Also, these are the "wrong" models (the AWI is not well covered in 1/72) and I'm using the wrong paints (cheap craft acrylics).  The fashionable scale would be 28mm or else 15mm or even 6mm.  I make no attempt at highlights by drybrushing; just a base coat and a wash of raw umber to darken the recesses.

As armies in a box, these are almost complete.  The rebels need a squadron of continental dragoons and there should be enough to play any of the scenarios in the book.  OHW has the player dice for the forces available (essentially a brigade or division), which can include up to 4 line battalions, 2 skirmish battalions, 2 cavalry and 2 artillery units.  The player will field four to six units from this selection in each scenario.  The AWI was notable for having a smaller proportion of cavalry or artillery than other conflicts, so I follow other bloggers in ruling that the second cavalry unit or second artillery unit is replaced by something else.  This approach also allows the replacements to represent something specific to this conflict, such as elite grenadiers, weaker militia, native warbands or riflemen.

KBO

Sunday, March 31, 2024

A first OHW ECW campaign

I'm now on my second ECW campaign using One Hour Wargames.  The first was played solo, but without a specific solo system, just playing both sides to see how things turn out.  In the second campaign I am using the solo system from https://gridbasedwargaming.blogspot.com/2023/07/solo-decision-cards-for-ecw-wargaming.html

OHW rules for pike & shot cover 4 types of troops: Infantry (mixed pike & shot), Swordsmen, Reiters and Cavalry.  For an English setting, I didn't need the Swordsmen, but was missing Dragoons and Artillery, so my game followed modifications by Alan Saunders to use the following troop types:

  • Foot (Pike & Shot) (Move 6" & shoot 12" d6) Charge d6 when out of ammo 
  • Reiters (Move 8" & shoot 12" d6) Charge d6 when out of ammo, half-hits vs Foot
  • Cavalry (Move 12", Charge d6+2, half hits vs Foot)
  • Swordsmen (Move 8",  Charge d6+2, half hits vs Reiters or Cavalry) May enter woods.
  • Dragoons (replace swordsmen) (Mv 8" or shoot 12" d6) May enter woods.  Run out of ammo, drop to low ammo and shoot d6-2. HTH d6-2
  • Artillery (replaces 1st Dragoon on a 4+ roll) Move 6", may not move (or pivot) and fire in same turn. Shoot 48" d6. May not move after first shot.
  • Irregulars (scenario special rule) (Mv 9" & shoot 12" d6-2) melee d6-2, unlimited ammo (archers)

The rules have no explicit officers/command function, so they are not represented.

Each side in the campaign fields an army consisting of 4 Foot, 2 Reiters, 2 Cavalry, 2 Dragoons & 1 Artillery unit.  Any unit that breaks in one scenario and then takes part in the next battle, begins with 12 HP, not 15.  This represents losses, green replacements etc.

For the first campaign I didn't make up names for the units of the two armies, but I added these in the second campaign, which made it easier to keep track of which regiments were engaged in each battle.

Scenario selection is random, with the winner of the previous battle choosing to be Red or Blue.  Before the first battle, the players toss a coin and the winner chooses Red or Blue position.

The campaign is won by the first side to achieve 3 victories

The first battle in the campaign, looking East

The first battle was scenario 23, Defence in Depth.

The Crown wins the toss and Lord Lummeigh elects to be Blue.  The attacker is Sir Breville Towcester's army for Parliament.

  • Parliament (Red) has 3 Foot, 2 Cavalry, 1 Artillery
  • The Crown (Blue) has 2 Foot, 1 Reiter & 1 Cavalry, but replaces all the horse with 2 Irregulars (archers) by scenario rule.

Lord Lummeigh stationed Foot 1 in the village, with Foot 2 immediately East, both facing North.  Irregulars in the woods North of the muddy river, and in the woods South of the River

Sir Breville marched on: Foot 1 & 3 went straight along the road toward the village, Foot 2 echelon Left 45 degrees to face the woods.  The gun was stationed between the road and Woods to fire on the irregulars & Foot 2.

The parliamentarian cavalry arrived in the East, crossing the river at the ford & making a sweeping movement around the woods to charge into the rear of King's Foot 2.

The climax of the battle approaches

The irregulars to the North of the river took heavy fire from the parliamentarian Foot and artillery.  They soon ran back across the ford.  The irregulars to the south maintained a steady harassing fire on the cavalry movements.

The key moments of the battle came in turns 5 and 6.  The cavalry swept around the flank, clearing away one unit of the irregulars.  Towcester's artillery and foot cleared the town.  The road was now open for the red force to achieve its objective and push ahead along the road.

But just as the battle seems to be over, pursuing fire from the remaining irregulars breaks one of Towcester's Cavalry and wins the day for the King.  

Sir Breville's much-reduced force continues south, but not in enough strength to make a difference.

In the next battle, Sir Breville went on to field all 4 regiments of foot, so 2 of them began at reduced strength.


Thursday, March 14, 2024

Edgehill solo

I've had a couple of Mike Lambo's solo games for a while, but never played his Battles of the English Civil War.  Mostly it's because I don't have any hex-grid boards or cloths to use.

This week I was on the house by myself for a while, so I decided to just drop some pennies in a regular array to mark the centres of the hexes, and stand some bases of troops on top of them.  In fact I laid them out in a rectangular array, 50mm apart, then moved every other column 25mm up the table to create a sort-of hexagonal array of points.

Edgehill at the end of turn 1

The units are 1/72 models, based on 40mm square MDF.  It looks like I set them up in the dark, because the cavaliers in floppy hats and big feathers are at the parliamentarian end, while the lobsters with pistols are with the King.  But it does mean that a game got played.

The little green dice indicate wooded hexes, the card sheets and drinks coaster are the hill.  I used little red dice to mark demoralised units and little yellow dice for orders.

The photo shows the position after turn 1.  Both sides have moved forward a little from their start positions and it's about to get interesting.

The book provides a programmed set of movement for the opposition (with die rolls to keep it from becoming predicatable).  My objective as Essex is to clear the field of royalist forces within 10 turns, which won't be easy, given that they outnumber me by 9 to 7.  I will have to make clever use of the support / flanking bonuses to ensure that my attacks are more effective than theirs.

Did I beat the system and win the game?  Not quite, which is just about the ideal answer.  At the end of turn 10 the King still had his artillery in place on the hill, while parliament's forces were down to 1 unit of horse, 1 of muskets, and the guns.  My last action on turn 10 was to fire my artillery at the King's, but my dice were not lucky and the outcome was a roughly historical score draw.

The game units don't feel quite right for the ECW at this scale.  Yes, there are horse, pikes, muskets & artillery, but at this scale (2 units of horse & 4 units of foot to represent the parliamentarian force) the pikes and muskets should operate together in battalia of foot.  Even the detachments of commanded shot would not be big enough to show up as a whole unit of muskets on this scale.  But as a game it provides variety and interest.  I will definitely play this battle again and then work through some more of the 15 scenarios in the book.

The little dice were actually bought for One Hour Wargames.  I make too many mistakes with a roster, marking damage against the wrong unit etc.  So instead I mark hits with dice: if a unit takes 1 to 5 hits, put a green die on it, showing a 1 to 5.  For 6 to 10 hits use a yellow die showing 1-5 and remember to add 5.  For 11 to 15 hits, use a red die.  It's not too fiddly to change the dice on the table, and there are no more mistakes about which unit takes the damage.


Sunday, February 25, 2024

Slow going

 No posts, and especially no eye candy.  What's going on?

Well, I take pictures with a camera (not a phone), so I then extract them from there to the computer that has picture-editing software but is not connected to the Internet.  Then they go onto a USB memory stick to be uploaded to a device where they can be shared to a blog.

Of course i can just grab a snap on the phone and share it immediately on Whatsit or Facelift, but I'm not about to start typing an article on the phone's virtual keyboard.

So it's taking me a while to find a flow that works for me, so I can share the tale of what I've been doing.

In the meanwhile, I've been playing 1815 Scum of the Earth, a card game of Waterloo, which has been enjoyable.  I read through the rules and thought to myself, this is like Magic the Gathering, historical edition.  There's a game that's all about card combinations and flow (so you keep a few cards in your hand, ready to have something to play next turn).  There must be some discussion of combo's and strategy out there on the Web.  Must be.  Surely.  I can't find it.  Maybe there are just too many games these days.  Contrast this with the late 1970s, when SPI were publishing new wargames at a rate of maybe one a month, and Avalon Hill were rather slower.  Back then the strategies in each game could be analysed in great depth, and they were discussed at length in paper magazines like The General and Moves.  Do we now have too many new games to be able to learn the nuances before moving on to the next thing?

While I'm grumbling about stuff, let me add that I was disappointed by the solo AI system.  For me, the ideal AI opponent plays to the same rules as a human opponent.  It's a great disappointment to see them make a move that would be illegal for a regular player.  Of course they need some kind of a boost, because the AI rules will probably play some impressively stupid moves, and yet they need to be hard to beat or there's no challenge in playing against one.  However, the game already provides that in the form of free resources (and the actual resources on table don't tire when used).  What irked me was that cards played by the AI come back to be played again later, in a way that doesn't happen with a human player. 

So what, you ask?  Well I would develop strategies while playing against the AI, and they will include ways to defend against repeated use of the same card.  Then I get a human opponent, and all of that study is wasted and may even lead me to be less efficient as I waste effort defending against something that can't happen.  It's not so bad as a to be a completely different game for solo play (I'm sure there are plenty of those), but it falls well short of recreating the feeling of a live opponent.

Enough rambling, time to get back to figuring out my pipeline for posts with pictures.

KBO

Monday, January 15, 2024

New blogger

Who would have thought that there could still be new users beginning to blog?  I'm sure that all the cool kids have migrated to newer platforms.  However, as my memory begins to fail me, this will provide a useful reminder of new toys and great games.  If anyone else reads it out of idle curiosity then I can only say that they have too much time on their hands 😀 

Aside from acting as a diary of games & other fun, I hope to use this blog as a way to circulate my own rules and modifications to those who play them.

New recruits for the AWI

 I've just painted and based two more regiments for the AWI. 38th Foot The 38th Foot uses up the remainder of a set of Revell (Accurate,...